So, for me, I try
you know, on our end,

there might be
twenty k, you know,

different things we're tracking.

That's overwhelming
for any client.

So I really really try
to keep it down to three,

maybe two metrics that
they need to worry about.

There's three ways
to grow a business.

Right?

You get more customers,

or you get to to do more
transactions per per, you know,

touch point, or you get
them to to buy more often.

Those that's it.

So I try to design three KPIs
on those three, areas, and

that's very, it is gonna be
specific to every company,

so I'd have to sit down and
do a strategy to really know what

that I wouldn't say this
is the I mean, there yeah.

There's there's
there's best practices,

but I I I like to do custom
work and I really to understand

someone's business.

And I think that when you got
we have all the people in the

room, you know, to do strategy.

Like, you'll have the the CEO
and you'll have the salesperson,

and they'll they'll think they're
saying the same thing in the room.

They'll realize,
like, oh my god.

They for a year, they've
been working together.

They were on a
completely different page and didn't

realize until I was on a whiteboard
asking the right questions.

You know, it makes
a big difference.

A certain level of
price of product.

So you have a whole
range of products,

but these are much more
valuable than these.

Maybe you wanna spend your
remarketing money on the people

that spent ten minutes looking
at the pair of Manolo Blahnik

instead of five seconds looking
at the pair of Kmart shoes.

It might make you more ROI.

I mean, what she's talking about
is basically scoring that happened.

Like, a sales team would
have a score on lead.

It's the same thing. You're
doing a digital scoring.

And but, again, that all has
to come from your strategy.

And a lot of times,

unless you're kind of technical a
little bit technical with ad ops,

sometimes it kinda hard it's hard
to know what to strategize about.

So that's why I think it's
important to actually,

kind of map out what all these
parameters are and what they should be.

And so so I I think a lot of
that mindset happened because

search was so great, because
the intent was there.

We knew what they wanted.

But the the truth is that's
like a small percentage of your

adjustable market.

Right? They know they want that.

There's a whole other, like,
eighty, ninety percent are

like, I wasn't even thinking

about a blue black,
but now I want one.

Now that I saw the video, if I
see a search ad for blue black,

that's not gonna really entice
me to wanna get a blue black.

So, I mean, there there's there's
a there's a time and place for it,

but it has to be like
a straight SCM buyer,

you can set up a brand campaign
and bid on the brand terms and,

like, get conversions
for five cents all day.

And you're like, oh,
look. This is awesome.

But you're not
finding anybody new.

I don't know how
long they've had it,

but I know you can also upload your
own email list to Facebook, right,

and target and your users plus the
lookalikes against that audience?

So we're talking about
lookalike audiences,

then there's act
alike audiences,

which deals more with
behavioral patterns.

I did a challenging
campaign for,

regulated industries.

It was a it was a financial
institute that it was SCC regulated.

So what's tricky about it
is that they were their AdWords

was not performing because
everybody wanted this thing.

It was like, yeah, but
they were not qualified.

They had to have, like, a
million dollars in the bank,

so it didn't make sense
to, target to use AdWords.

So I did more of
a video campaign,

and I was able to target
very specifically using,

third party, you know, bank data,
financial data, and then, you know,

trying to find a more
influent a influential kind of customer

to bring in and suddenly,

it started to get to
perform in a different way.

So couple of things.

A lot of anyone here market a lot of
video on Facebook for direct response?

Alright. Why not?

Hopefully hopefully, very soon,

you guys will once
you see the results.

And then there's, of course,

when you wanna scale it out
beyond Facebook and beyond just

search, just like you wanna go
EPUBs or something, you know,

you wanna get your ad on
Huffington Post or New York

Times or Wired Magazine and
that's a whole other thing.

Yeah. Well I would that brings
up kind of programmatic. Right?

And I'm you may wanna do a
direct buy with a publisher,

but are you guys working
in programmatic and We're a

program Noble Digital
programmatic agency.

I mean, I like to be
platform agnostic.

I pretty much literally have
a reach of billions with a b

because of that, you know,
so it's that's not a problem.

But I definitely like to start,

with the lean start up
way and really just, like,

define the audience, find
them, prove that my, you know,

that our theory is correct.

Especially if it's a start
up and they're learning about

their customers, that's
really important.

If you don't have, like,

twenty years or ten years
of data to go through,

then you definitely wanna start
there and then scale it up, you know.

And one other thing I wanna add
is that you can run your brand

video as as it is,

but you can use ad tech to
do the direct response now.

You don't need someone
shouting like, sign up now.

You have that little
overlay that pops up,

and they can make that decision,

take that action or not.

So you could have maybe, a
mid roll action that's very, like,

lead magnet esque, very light,

and then the end could be
a little bit stronger or

aggressive if you if
if you want, you know.

But that's like
another way to play it.

So the question is about walled
gardens versus the open web and

how to manage frequency of
impressions and audience across those.

Any insights on that, guys?

I I mean, that's why I do programmatic
because if you're on Facebook I

mean, people are not on
Facebook all the time,

every day, every hour.

Some people are,
but most are not.

And so, you you know, if
you get them on a Saturday,

they might not come
back till next Saturday,

that's why you have
to get that pixel,

and you have to work with that,

and then retarget them somewhere
else online, for example.

So, I mean, that becomes very
important that you have multiple

strategies all at play intertwined
and integrated with each other.

And I think you I mean, I I

find that mostly it depends on
the product and or service or

what you're promoting,
but, you know, video,

mobile gets a lot of
engagement and response,

but it doesn't always get the
transaction because people are

kind of browsing and and then,

you know but there's certain
items where you need them them

to sit down at a desk and
actually look at it and read it

and think about it.

And they're in a different
state of mind when they're at

your desk versus laying in bed
or wherever on the go, you know.

So even though people go crazy
about mobile and the engagement

and all that stuff, yeah,
the engagement is there.

But, like, is the attention
really there? Not always.

It just depends.
There's no verses.

I don't think that that we were.

Tony admitted he didn't notice
the verses was even the title.

He's like, what?

So I think we all agreed before we started
that it's not really a verses thing.

It's it's integration
is the word here.

Just to your point,

I I did have a client where
he had an amazing funnel,

and he literally was

mid and bottom.

You need to work on the top.

And because that was outside of
the scope of his comfort level,

I think, it was almost like he
wanted to stay in the machinery.

I'm like, your messaging's off.

Like, it it didn't look nice.

It was like I was
trying to be nice.

I was like, you need to
work on the branding part.

And he felt like, well, if
I can just save a nickel,

I'm gonna this will
convert and you know?

And it doesn't scale.
That's the problem.

It doesn't scale, you
know, a lot of times.

Yeah. I mean, that's
just a mindset.

You know, it's something someone
who's worked at probably what Steve's

company just does all day long.

ROI, can we get six to one
instead of five to one?

And it's a mindset that and
when you're in that place,

you're not thinking about the brand
perception and that, you know,

there's other things outside of
that direct response piece in

the very bottom of
the funnel that could

scale the bottom of the
funnel for you down the line.

So if you go and you
do that branding,

you put the money
into a brand campaign,

into awareness campaign,

you drive the preference for
you over your competitors.

More people eventually are
going to come into that

retargeting and you'll
have a lot more data

to work off of.

So, yeah, they do work together,

but there are a
lot of people who

just have such a
direct response feel,

and especially when
it's their company.

Oh, I think in the beginning,
direct response is, like,

the the the quick win and it feels
great and but it just kinda plateaus.

And the biggest lever is gonna be at
the top and it's gonna be branding.

And that's the part that sometimes
they don't get that lesson.

Well, and that I mean, that's
a risk for so, like, I have a

client who's very
Doctor focused and but,

they get found online very
easily for the products that

people are searching for.

But now we're trying to break
out and how do you get seen and

at the higher level
of the funnel?

And that's scary for a performance
marketer to try to build a brand.

If you're using an agency, make
sure that you're you know, ask that.

Ask how your conversions
are getting measured,

and what their
attribution model is,

because the last click is
I I wouldn't recommend it.

It.

Alan, you had a thought?

I mean, I was just saying,

I I think you have to move
more towards a linear model.

Otherwise, you're you're you're
basically missing out on on on these

other sources.

You know, retargeting doesn't you can't
do a retargeting strategy only, newsflash.

I mean, unless you have amazing
organic flow that's targeted,

a lot of times SEO is it's all
over the place and it's not

it's like a house built on sand,

you don't really know
what you're getting.

So you need to have some
kind of paid media on top,

pushing very targeted,

people into your funnel so
that the retargeting actually,

you know That's a great point.

I mean, retargeting is
people that have already

been to your site after all.

You've paid for them. You
know who they are in theory.

So what's a good,

rule of thumb in terms of the
amount of budget that should be

spent on retargeting

you know, prospecting campaigns,
for those who don't know,

prospecting campaigns are driving
new users into your funnel.

So if remarketing is converting,

you remember you have a finite
amount of users you can remarket to.

So I always like to spend as
much money as humanly possible

with keeping the current
conversion rate on remarketing,

and hopefully that's
more than less.

So, you know, as many users I
have in my remarketing bucket,

I'm trying to spend as much as
possible while at the same time

keeping a CPA.

Mhmm. Yeah. So that
that's exactly right.

You can't really look at it at
the outset and be like, okay,

fifty percent is gonna
go to remarketing,

fifty percent to prospecting.

It it's gonna be like
retargeting usually ends up

converting better if
you're doing it properly.

You're gonna find people that
are already engaged or people

that have been to the site
so they already have some

awareness so they're deeper
down into the funnel.

But, that could end up being
it could end up being fifty

percent of your budget.

It could be more.

But it's more more about, like,

how big spend as much as you
can and your different tactics

that are working the best
if it's giving you the ROI.

And then everything else
you're gonna spend towards that

prospecting and trying
to get new new clients.

And then we're talking
about one dimension.

Let's take it a couple layers,
like, retargeting with what?

If you use an
automated platform like Adderall,

like some small businesses
do, they don't even, their,

frequency rate cap,
there's no cap on it.

So they're they're pounding

on it.

So they're they're
pounding whoever,

eighty times or whatever over
a course of, I don't know,

weeks or months, with your ad,

and that could be really
irritating unless you have a

bunch of different ads and
they're really focused.

So it's like, what are
we really talking about?

So even that has to be,
mapped out and and understood.

Is that something you
wanna put on autopilot?

Yeah.

I mean, the reputation of
remarketing, of course,

is that banners follow
you around the web.

And, I mean, the ability to
have a a kinda order complete

pixel existed a long time ago.

I mean, have have we
figured that out yet?

Is that something that
you guys use in practice?

Or like A remove pixel.
Pixel. A remove pixel.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

We're talking about
pay per click.

We're talking about
Facebook a lot.

We're talking about some search.

I actually did a
campaign where we did TV,

and that was driving
users to the website.

And so now you're talking
about offline to online,

and that gets kinda cool.

Because it was a startup,

and we were using big boy
tools to scale them up.

Right?

And so, and it it it was
gonna be a one month test,

and ended up performing for
eighteen months straight.

Ran every day, five
times a day, nonstop.

And it was just a huge user
generated, user gen you know,

you're generating machine,

and now they're at a
hundred million in revenue.

So So what was the what's the technical
mechanism that made that work?

If you can if you can say, like,

I we had did you drop
a picture from IP?

What's the tactic?

What's the one thing you know,
it's like it's a monster,

but it's not that hard if
I explain it strategically.

It's really you are
creating a TV campaign,

and then we then you're driving
people it's direct response.

Right? But we did
it a little more.

We called it brand response,
and the reason for that is,

and I changed I broke all
the rules of direct response,

and I I came from
brand TV commercials.

I'm always like, why does
people have to shout.

We call it yell and sell.

And it's like, why what and
so I just told the client,

why why can't we just have,
like, graphics instead of,

like, voice over?

And then they were like, cool.

They were thank
God they were open.

We did it in a much
more stylish way.

It was very elegant, and
it it worked really well.

And and the thing is is we
were doing attribution within a

window of ten minutes, and you
could see that it was, like,

spiking up, and it
was actually working.

So, I mean yeah. And these
are different kinds of tools.

These are, like, third party
tools that you're using.

I I was using iSpot, for
example, you know, to do that.

Use the term brand response.

I would love to talk a little
bit about the stages of the

marketing funnel.

A couple of you have
touched on it, but,

from awareness through
the classic funnel, attention,

desire, down to that conversion,

how do you think about those

stages we've been talking about?

Could you, talk about
that a little bit? Anyone?

For me, I mean,
for brand response,

I I really think
it's really about

branding first, and then the
direct response kinda comes later.

And branding is like,
I've never heard of you.

And so there's gotta be
something about the feel,

the touch of your brand that
makes people wanna engage further.

Right?

And once you get them
down into your website,

then I think the direct
response takes more place.

And obviously with, you
know, retargeting all that,

you're really trying
to drive that.

But that's where you try
to kick in the machinery,

get your core offerings,
your splintered offerings,

your upsells, cross sells,

all that stuff happens
more on the website.

So once you're off the website,

I really feel like it's it's
a combination of of, like,

eighty percent branding
and twenty percent, like,

money can take place a visit.

It can't be, like,

always in your face because
there's always a lot of there's

already a lot of noise online.

It's like you don't
want to be too pushy.

But what I find here's here's
how I kind of separate it.

It'd be real I don't exaggerate.

Direct response can
be kind of, like,

in your face face and
even kind of cheesy,

and it's just like
the skeleton of, like,

this is what we want you to do.

Right?

And branding is almost like it's
perfume ad, and it's like, wait.

What do they want me to do?

Like, it's just like a
feeling. It's very emotional.

So what you're really trying to
do is combine the mind and the

and the emotions together.

It fuse, like, perfectly.

Yeah. Well put.