So welcome in everybody I am so pumped about this conversation today This is our monthly

call in at hacking music and for those of us that are new here Um Hacking

music is a training system that aligns four things that's talent training technology and team

uh and a few more people in here Uh And the monthly call in is

kind of our mind hive where we bring in somebody who's 5 to 10 years down the road

from us and have just an open and honest conversation um really letting their hindsight be

our foresight Uh We'll have some Q and A at the end So um feel free to um ask Brian

your questions as we jump into this conversation So Brian welcome my friend How have you been

I I've been doing well John thanks for having me Good to be with you

It's good to be with you too man I've been really looking forward to this as

we've been kind of talking online over the last couple of months It's like you know you and

I we both met down at the Entrepreneur Center I believe it was the first inaugural class down

there we were both in startup mode then Um And we've both kind of gone different paths

and reconnected over the years So um I've you know I wanted us to get together

and talk about just the parallel swim lanes the similarities between the startup path and the artist path And

uh I know there'll be some differences obviously but there's so many parallels as we've

just kind of been discussing over the last couple of months So uh this will be fun This will

be a great conversation Can you kind of get us What what what what's your story How did

you kind of you're in Colorado now You were in Nashville for years But what what

got you there How did you get there Yeah Uh Originally from the west coast from

the San Diego area spent most of my early career in Nashville and then have been out in the

the Denver Boulder Colorado area for the last eight years or so Um Yeah a little

bit about me I I grew up as an artist Um You know I've had my

I I call my my hippie parents right They they had a bunch of amazing family

friends that we grew up in San Diego We'd surf in the morning and pull out the you know the

guitars or you know harmonica different instruments jam out around the campfire So that was kind

of my early days um when we moved my wife and I moved to Nashville in 2001 and we

got involved uh with you know really on the business and technology side And most of

my career has been kind of technology Product or product management is the official term Um and and and music

and what what now is coin software as a service So dealing with software companies So I

I do to your point think there are a lot of parallels to building an

artist career and building a business And I I think there are really some concepts coming out of

like the product management discipline that could probably help some folks here Yeah I agree

they're familiar with crossing the chasm there's that gap you know to where you've done some things

you know you're you're not a total newbie but you've not yet kind of made that shift and

crossed the chasm into having a real career and that's a different headspace different headspace different expectation different way of

communicating different way of of delegating Um So so yeah tell us I I know I know you worked

with big machine on some projects you worked with Taylor Swift uh uh universal kind of

give us give us some uh backdrop um for that era when you were back in

Yeah so uh early days of Nashville you know the music industry was being disrupted

So I I started out with em I uh on the record label side and

you know a lot of my role was what I'd call kind of a product marketing product we were

launching you know obviously digital products digital music we were um building a lot of relationships you know itunes

had just come out in 2000 uh 3 uh went over the Sony did the same thing

but more on the mobile side you know kind of creating this uh if you remember things like ringtones and

you know back in the day But yeah it was it was during my time at Sony

that I actually and and by the way all all all along I was playing in multiple bands

I was trying to create um my career like that that was my dream I wanted to

to kind of go ahead and quote make it right And so I understand how long

uh it takes and and and it's just tough to build that fan base and right

and and to actually make money from doing that Um So actually that that was a lot of

the impetus behind the company We founded me and three other co-founders It was called Bandbox This is 2006

you know fan base So the internet was emerging right There was a bunch of social

media sites you know Facebook had just kind of started to blow up And um

and so it was really we built like an e-commerce like an early Shopify So it was like a

uh e-commerce kind of widget had an ad platform A lot of these artists that we

worked with had their own sponsors So they were they were more established artists but we started to work with

um and more of the independent artist community as well Um So yeah that that

was something I did for about five years and learned a lot in the process And you

know there is um I I told you this before we started the call I

actually think it's one of the hardest things to do as an artist because it's

such a um competitive marketplace You think about all of the people all of us right on this call probably

you know creating something and then trying to establish this relationship with maybe just a small subset

of the marketplace of music listeners to say like hey why should they care about what I'm doing about the

content I'm creating Um And so maybe at some point during this call too there's this concept called product market

fit that we use in product management and software um that I think may be kind of

applicable to even what we as artists do Yeah Hey Brian going back to Bandbox Yeah What you spent five

years at Band box It was kind of an early um Shopify competitor What what were

some of the things you learned from that I mean that's doing that Postmortem is tough because you really

have to be honest with yourself and ask questions like OK what worked What didn't work

What we get Right Were we early were we late And those are really for a founder and

an artist especially who's probably a high feeler doing those kind of uh postmortem project reviews

are a challenge What what did you you know looking back now it's been some years beyond that But what

with maybe clear eyes and a fresh fresh look What what did you would you

learn what you take away from the band box stage of your career Yeah I

think there's a couple big lessons here to share Um you know 11 of these is what what

I call like getting getting lucky or like you know just because you're able to

do something once doesn't mean you're able to do it um again or or at

that same scale So oftentimes an artist right will have a hit song and like you know we call them

one hit wonders whatever but like you know something connects and it's like why can't I do that You

know some some artists are able to do it 10 2030 times in a row Uh We we early on

launched with uh Taylor Swift She was our really our second or third kind of main

client and that was such a phenomenal success Did we just thought as young entrepreneurs You know

we just thought oh that's that's just gonna be how it is like right There's

and so I think the what I learned from that the challenge when you when you kind of quote unquote

hit it big early It kind of distorts your whole perspective and your thinking and building

anything a business building an artist you know your career building a fan base is so challenging It takes so

much effort right And so when you when I I just kind of thought honestly like

oh this is this is gonna be easy from here that Taylor swift and upwards from there Um

Yeah So that's that's one thing that I'd probably take away Um Another thing is you know like I

think there's this I I'm a I'm a person who is a dreamer I'm someone who's kind of like

the glass is you know half full like we're gonna make this happen And sometimes you get

some signals from your audience whether it's your customer or your fan base And there are certain things that

I had to do do over that I would have um taking it more to heart

right Rather than just dismissing it And I think in the early days we were

just gonna innovate everything we are creating a brand new uh model for delivering music to customers and we were

um you know innovating how artists make money and we were innovating how advertisers adverts Like we were

trying to do it all at once I think if I had to do over and we

had some people say hey I think you guys are trying to bite off a little

bit more than you can chew You know how do I just focus on one thing at a time

you know really get good at that component or really innovate in that space and not try and like break

all of the rules at once Um And yeah and I I think there's just a

lot to be learned there Um You know even as an artist it's like OK I I'm

gonna I'm not gonna try and like radically changed the whole music industry overnight right So

yeah those those are the couple of things that that come to mind Yeah that's great man So

product management for the uninitiated maybe a 18 year old artist who's just starting out how

would you how would you define that in kind of layman's terms Yeah So the discipline of product management

really came out of like called the eighties nineties and Silicon Valley you know a

lot of the big tech companies that maybe we're all familiar with started to have this role and the role

of product manager was kind of sit in between So kind of in the middle

of the software engineers you write the code right And the customer or the business right

So in a lot of ways people looked at a product manager as like a translator So the the old

way of just saying like hey the customer just go tell engineer what to build

or um you know the the CEO or executives go tell the the engineers with

the bill like that wasn't working And so product management brings a lot of discipline a lot

of process a lot of kind of ways of thinking But I I think the one of the you

know biggest pieces of value that they bring is a a product manager's job is

to ensure that the software company right Usually uh it could be any type of companies typically

software company is delivering the the ultimate you know the maximum amount of value to their

customer because because that's that value you're delivering to your customer that's what you're gonna monetize right So that's what

you're gonna So if you think about a product manager from like an as an artist and you being

that filling that role as a product manager like your job is um again if

you can you know you have to wear a lot of hats So if you can

kind of take off the hat of creator for a second take off the hat of

like I'm I'm you know writing the song or performing or whatever it is and you're putting on the

hat of hey this music that I created you know I you know what's what kind of

value like who's it connecting with in the market What what type of people like Um It's a really

uh curious role Like you're you're asking a lot of questions like hey why why did only three people

show up to my show tonight You know or or why did why did this song get a

lot of you know likes um or why did this song get a lot of you know streams on Spotify

But this one didn't So you you're kind of playing that role of like one part investigator Um You're

also trying to get really crisp on like um again you're not selling anything you're not marketing

yourself you're just saying like hey what what can we do if you think about you as the product

is the artist or your your music is the product Like what can what what needs to

change What's not connecting with my audience Like I thought so So it's a much more objective role than

the subjective you know hat that the artist normally wears right That's right That's right So it's almost a stoic

kind of don't assume anything type headspace right Which which I get is really difficult to do when you

when you're playing the same role Like it's just you yourself But I also think it's it's possible and

I've I've done it many times And this is in hacking music we talk about whole

brain thinking it's like left and right brain You know the old school idea of you

know I'm a left brain person I'm a right brained person You know artists of the

future really have to become whole brain have to be able to use both sides of

their brain and kind of point their point their head in the right direction So Brian how it sounds

to me like saying no getting comfortable saying no is like vital because most most of the

time artists and entrepreneurs are are like everything's a great idea You know it's it's

just let's chase everything and and and what you're saying if I if I hear you right

is like you're there to not assume your instincts or your intuition is right but you're there to kind

of test and say no to things but kind of follow the data rather than the Yeah

maybe maybe John maybe we can uh bring it down a level into something really practical Give a

practical example I don't I don't know if maybe you can play the the role of artists and

I'll play the role of product manager and we can kind of tackle a real world example You have

anything that comes to mind Yeah Yeah I mean we've got um let's say an artist artist a

is like hey um I you know the old school way of selling single products

one offs you know what if we move to a monthly subscription model and you

know maybe come up with a $29 widget $49 widget and a $69 widget You know I think that

would be interesting I don't you know how what would you say to me as an artist who wants

to just like hey let's I I see the way the world's going Netflix Amazon everything's month

monthly subscriptions Why don't we try Can we try this Yeah so that that actually

this is a great example I love this Um So as the artist right And sometimes I will all say

artist slash marketer kind of or have have a similar perspective Um think of it this way I I'm

I'm getting really excited because I'm like oh man what if I could create this subscription model

That'd be really nice for me to have revenue just coming in on a regular basis monthly you know $29

a month plus you know 49 plus you know maybe 69 whatever the price point

right And you're like hey I've got these ideas for these you know these packages that we could do and

and you're getting really excited again but it's from from your perspective you're you're solely thinking

like what again what Yeah what if and like this would be really good for my

career and good for me personally a product manager with you know going back to your point about saying

no actually would come from like a totally different perspective In fact the best product managers

I believe they come from the um kind of the bias this isn't gonna work In fact I

gotta prove prove I have to prove to myself that it actually will work it out OK Yeah And it's

and and this is why it's important to really make a distinction like OK I'm putting on

my product management hat now and the the value in starting there is that you will look you will

look at the opportunity differently You'll see all of the holes and you'll actually take the customer in this

case your fans perspective because really what you wanna say are things like well why

would anybody want to pay $29 a month Like that's just money out of their pocket or why would they

want You know and it will it will really cause you to say well I don't know maybe go

let me go ask them let me go talk to you know we talk about

product management being customer obsessed you know So as an artist you needed to be fan obsessed like what what's

in it for them Maybe it's the worst idea maybe or the three packages that you thought they

would love They're like no that doesn't do it for me Um When you kind of take the the flip

side of the coin you have you put on your product management hat and you're kind

of exploring you're like you know what what do they need or what do they really want for me

Do they do they want a monthly package Would would they rather um something else And and the the only

way you're gonna get to that answer is to go spend a lot of time with a lot of

customers And I'm not just talking like you know chat chatting after a show or you know I don't know

some some commenting back on you know a social media platform but like I don't know it could be you're

spending a couple of hours you're taking them out to lunch maybe you're you're on

a phone call maybe you're doing one of these and you're just asking people like again

it depends where you are in your career But if you let's say you have you know 1000 fans

that have kind of been following you along and maybe 100 of them are your diehard fans And you're

like hey I want to sit down with all 100 of them They're the ones

that month after month or every time I put out something they're the ones that are

out there purchasing that I'm gonna ask them are they getting what they need from me What else could

I what other value could I provide for them So it it takes it away from like I don't

know I don't wanna say selfish perspective You get into like more of a I'm gonna create I'm

the mark I'm gonna market I'm in like what are they You know you just ask them what

they need How does that like interviewing customers And then there's kind of the genius mode call

it like the way Steve jobs created stuff Mad scientist went and created the thing and everybody

loved it Right Is that the exception the genius mode the the person who just gets what the customer

wants and just does it what do you how do you balance that this thing You know

I mean II I hear what you're saying like interviewing people and that's you're correct But that's

also like for that's like a stake in the heart for the um the artist

who just it you know wants to be Prince you know genius mode They think

like I'm just gonna create it and everybody will come and that's obviously flawed because you

know 200,000 releases are released a day you know nobody cares about your music right So how do

you how do you handle the artist that says you know I just want to be the creative genius and

I'm just gonna be the Steve Jobs and you know people will love it Yeah Yeah So

I actually think the Steve Jobs example gets uh misunderstood all of the time like Steve Jobs you

know in fact there's tons of interviews he talked to so many customers In fact the reason

he knew what they what they needed is because he he was um obsessed with his customers

So you the the distinction here is you're not asking them for a solution You're

not asking your customer like or your fan like hey how many times should I release a song You're

just trying to understand who they are and what they want and what they need and then you

can use your creative genius Um you know to figure out how to deliver I

mean they're hey there's always gonna be artists that are just like I'm gonna do

my thing no matter what I don't care what people want or think and that's fine However

You know you you're able to put together something that starts to attract the fan base I'm just trying to

apply some of these principles of like when I say you're interviewing it's it's it's

not this formulaic thing It doesn't have to be it's just it's like if you and I were hanging

out and I'm like man his voice sounds really good on that microphone You know like I

just kind of like there you go 123 And I'm like you know I'm just getting

curious like why does he have Like he has a nice microphone I'm like maybe I

like I don't know you're you're observing you're you're listening you're you're building relationship honestly Um more than anything Uh

but you're you're connecting with your fan base so that you can connect even deeper with them versus like

if you're just in the studio or if you're just kind of like you know you you

never interact There's I don't know there's no data points to really inform your decisions One of the

things we talk about a lot is assuming you know nothing Assume you you it's the beginner's mind idea

of like just empty your empty your glass out and just like don't be a no at all

Assume you know nothing And then when you when you go into a conversation it's like you're just kind of

open you receive you're in receiving mode rather than hush mode you know Yeah No

And that I think that even um applies to the other aspects of building your career right And

and um assuming you know nothing about how to market So you're you're talking to

other artists you're exploring what they're doing you're watching what you're doing you're observing you

know you're um assume you know nothing about you know whatever music distribution assuming you

know nothing about like you know even on the the creative side when you get in there and you're

like hey you know I know my craft but like I don't know you you can always

learn something and So II I love that approach and I think that you know

the the benefit of taking that mindset is that you're you're gonna continue to you

know this is the name like khaki music you're gonna learn those tips and tricks

right That kind of help you get a little bit further ahead Like we talked about in the beginning

this is a super competitive space so many people creating music So so how anything you can do to set

yourself apart Is it So so Brian back with the role playing so say we talked to 50 of

our customers who have bought four more products in the past two years we get data from them Where

do we go from that from there What's what's what do you think next steps

are after kind of the conversation phase Yeah in product management I always say like 8

to 12 customer interviews is kind of the the rule of thumb just to get a

sense of the trend you know you get you talk to 50 of your fans you will have a good

idea of what the trends are what the commonalities are like You'll start to hear the same thing

over and over and over So let's just use an example May maybe you talk to

um 50 customers and they're like you know what John that acoustic version of that you

know that cover you did six years ago in your basement that still is like

my favorite thing And um man I just wish you would do more and then you hear that you know

doing it because I'm yeah I'm moving in a different direction for some reason like the authenticity of that

or you know the setting or maybe maybe like maybe like I don't do covers but you're

like I don't know there's something about my version of the covers You you start to discover what your strength

is right Your your superpower right And and so you're like huh OK I got this trend you know

back in my parents' basement Um Maybe I'll try another one So a lot of product management is experimenting

right So you do the research you get some trends and then you're like I'm gonna go

try it So then you go back to your parents' basement and you you try and recreate that and you're

like and you put it out there and you know people that weren't around six years ago

you know they're coming and they're saying wow that was amazing you know and you're like OK

maybe something about you know how I connect has to do with you know these factors

And so that's what you that's what you do You're constantly connecting building relationships getting those

inputs and then trying some stuff Um it doesn't mean it's gonna be a a

success but maybe that's you know that's what leads to these breakthrough You're like you know

what I'm gonna every month do this a acoustic cover and that's gonna be you know it's gonna

drive sales It's I don't know maybe that leads to your back to your subscription model Um but yeah

that's that's what I would Yes Yeah So one of the things we talk about is is

this idea of a fan first company And it echoes what you're saying as far as

listening to your customer Um But the the inverse of that is like ok you don't want to become a

service provider to your customers I mean you you're still an artist right So how do you how do you

balance that You know if they want the demo work tape in my parents' basement you know

and that's that's not who I am How do how do I still how do I still become and be

the artist But yet listen to your fans right Is it binary Is it both And would

I think it's both I think it's both And so you know for anyone who's had a serious relationship

or married and I've been married 22 years right Everything in in the best relationships

there's compromise right And that that is that is true I think as an artist

with your fan like to to to build a strong relationship There's give and take And so let's just

rip off that same example If you're for whatever reason you're just fundamentally opposed Like I just

I'm I'm an original artist I don't do covers art I'm the dude I'm Prince Yeah And and that's

that's fine too Like I I actually that was me for a long time as artist I never wanted to

do a cover Just I I was I wrote hundreds of my own songs and that's

what I cared about Um And so I think there is there is a give

and take but like you're just kind of when you experiment and you explore this relationships it's like OK maybe

I don't know maybe it's not every time it's a cover maybe it's every other time it's a cover

and then it's you know I'm doing my original or or maybe I'm just doing my original but

I'm doing the acoustic version which for some reason is translating connecting on a deeper

level and it's more valuable to my fan base So I I don't think that there's

I think it's the the both and that you're you're giving and you're taking you're exploring

new things Uh I I don't would never suggest anyone like um compromise who they are as an

artist but there are there are compromises that we all have to make I mean and at the end

of the day they're taking out their credit cards every month It's like well that's right

Maybe they're our boss or or you know we are there to serve them you know I'm I'm

I'm not a big fan in artists not having a true north but I'm a

bigger fan in artists having a fan base that listens to them and pays you know

takes out their credit card every month I mean that's that kind of allows you to have a future

right You you that's right Yeah So Brian go go ahead Well just one last point

on this it's like speaking of two no you you have to understand your identity and who you are but

you're you're constantly like grappling with that as an artist right And so I think

part of this evolving relationship with your fans and the give and the take and

you know connecting with them and getting inputs and trying things is that you're constantly kind of refining

to like ok this you know we're all like this is what I wanna do Like no actually I wanna

do this like you're you're still always evolving as an artist and I would say just

don't get locked in to like I have to do it a certain way Um Yeah

Yeah there's there's a a number of people who will remain nameless as you know they've just that was

the way they did it in the eighties and that by God that's the way they're gonna

they're not gonna change or or innovate or change their the way they think So Brian thinking about

music products and technology products what are what are what are the similarities that you

see in that in those two parallel swim lines Yeah there's there's a lot of parallels

one has to do with human behavior So um in recent years I've been a lot

involved with a lot of software um technology that's kind of geared towards small businesses right

Or or mid to to enterprise business as well But a lot of the challenges that these kind of

startup companies faced is you're trying to change human behavior or business processes right Like uh

well I used to only to your point do it this way in the eighties right Or I used

to only communicate this way or um and it's across the board whether you're like in finance

or you're in accounting or you know marketing sales um product has changed a lot And

so there's just this human behavior like is similar to as a music listener right The the way you

listen to music this goes back to my startup We are we are trying to change so many

things and human humans we as humans we just change slowly and our habits change slowly

and they you know sometimes it takes you know decades right And so I think

the the part that's applicable here as an artist thinking about your music and just thinking about

um even if you're trying to like commercialize and you know like going back to the examples of like well

let's create a subscription model because you know there are customers are used to Netflix or they're used to

Spotify or whatever it is Um You you just have to be careful or you maybe careful is

the wrong word You have to be aware that when you're trying to change how they buy from you

or how they listen to your music or how often like that may take a while Um And it doesn't

mean you shouldn't try and innovate but it just means that you should anticipate and expect

that it could be multiple years right Um So here here's an example let's just say that

you decide you you you talk to 50 of your fans and they're like yeah we just we want

you know more of what you did in your basement and blah blah blah And you're like you know what

what if I did like a monthly kind of video kind of live performance thing right And you're

like you know maybe that that's what I'm gonna do I'm rather than you know

recording in my parents' basement and and then you you do that and you're like oh

only three people showed up and you're like well because you've never done it before right Your

your fans don't even know what to expect and maybe your fans that's not how they listen to music

from you know from some of their other favorite artists Now here's what I see Maybe

you try it again and like the next time you know three people and show you

know five people showed up right And then the next time you know eight people showed up

right And so you're like OK when when do I how do I decide whether this is a

good idea or a bad idea That's every startup Every company comes out with this Like we

have this brilliant product and you're like we're gonna sell it to thousands of people and

you're like you get three sales and you're like huh And this is this whole concept of product market fit

It's like it takes a while for you to get that new product You know

like in this case maybe it's this video you know this online kind of concert you

know and you you try it for a while and at some point you're gonna you

know if if you go two years and you only have five people show up right That's probably a pretty

good sign that something's not connecting And I don't know what it is It could be a

million different factors But if you're doing it for two years and every month you're going from 5

to 8 to maybe 16 uh maybe a couple dozen And then you got like you

know you're getting up to 100 plus and you're like ok something pumpkins like maybe it's not

paying the bills yet but there's something there Yeah Yeah Yeah So yeah building products building

companies building your your career It's I would say you know these concepts of like experimenting constantly getting

the feedback setting the right expectation that this is a this is a long term play Um most

of these things take years and years to develop Yep 100% So how would you say they're different

The music and the tech swim lanes I mean obviously you're building a technology product and there's developers and product

cycles there But what how would you how would you say they're different Yeah most companies I

would say um there's more of a transactional relationship between um the the company the product company and

the the customer right Like you know I don't have a personal relationship with Google or Apple right I

I don't um so some brands have kind of tried to replicate that um on the

business side like you know I don't have a personal relationship with sales force I

may know some people there but like it's just a tool I think the difference for

artists and their fans it's personal right This there's like there's a deeper connection and there's

pros and cons that come with that But um you know like I and we probably

all have there's certain artists and like even independent artists right You know you think about like you build that

relationship you're going out to their shows all the time There's like this deep affinity Like it's maybe you

know maybe you're on a first name you know name basis you or you email back and

forth I I don't know but there's there's something special and um a a deeper it's it's not a transaction

and not as much of a transaction In fact I think that's part of the success

or that's part of the recipe for success if you can get away from you know having that transactional

relationship with your fan base and and yeah not not that you're crossing any lines but you're

just you know it's more of that personal deeper relationship So you see that as a strength that

emotional I do Yeah Yeah I think I think it's a strength for many reasons I think that um you

know if you can get to that place there will be more of your fans that will be be willing

to pay you know more be willing to spend more of their disposable income you know on your your

products on you I I think that you know when you have that deep connection there's a um

you know people stick with you for longer So there's this idea of retention right When

you're in companies like oh yeah I as soon as the next new A I

product comes along like forget that company or they're cheaper I'm gonna go with them Like it's it's

more brutal in the business world Like people are just you know it's off the shelf I can get it

right here here here Right So Brian going back to to your time with bandbox what do

you think Someone like Taylor I mean obviously she's an outlier as an artist very connected to her audience

What do you think Why do you think she got what y'all were doing Why do you

think that worked What was it that made her want to work with with y'all Yeah that's

a good question And again I I think that it was I'd answered a couple different ways you

know it's really was maybe more of her record label and management group and even her her family But even

early on like I mean when we worked with her she was probably 17 or so So she was

fairly young She had released one album but you know she already had a reputation for being

the person that would it was not a transactional relationship with her fans right And so she had even

at that early early stage when she was kind of that was when you know she

was finding herself and finding her feet you know she was still country back then right

As a 15 year old girl I mean she was staying you know heard all these stories

earlier like she stay till like two in the morning signing everyone's you know whatever poster given all

the autograph graphs connecting face to face like talk about a personal relationship And I

mean her fans felt like you know each fan felt like they were the most important person right

And they had this special connection and as we know like you can't do that with millions of

people let alone dozens But she she had that ability And so I think when Bandbox

when we launched Bandbox it was a perfect fit because she already had established a pretty strong connection and

she had these rabid like just core fans they wanted everything And so Bandbox provided kind of this

direct consumer type of e-commerce platform that that she could embed in all of her social

media sites and blogs and websites and she could sell these really high-end packages of special like autograph

you know physical digital like all sorts of merch stuff and she just knew she would

have thousands of fans that were like yeah doesn't matter 50 bucks 100 bucks 200 bucks Like I'm

gonna buy it because I have such a special relationship and connection with her Um

And it's not it's just it's still even hurt It's only a small subset of your fans But man if

she got it early on III I think that is even today like it's fully formed today back then It

was kind of early days you know but you could still she's still the same

person still she still connect now like sold out arenas right But it's still that

like it's not a transactional relationship It's it's personal I love it man So as artists again back to that

being an artist only to being a product manager taking ownership of their product suite

sales e-commerce et cetera What do you think What are the pitfalls there And what do you think

they may miss version one Like they're they're they're they're trying some things What what are they

most likely where are they gonna miss I I think where they're gonna miss is they're

gonna try and do too much at once Um And and what I mean by that is to be

in a software company there are dozens and dozens of roles So as a solo prone as like an artist

like not only are you the creator but now you have to play all these different roles of product manager

and marketer and salesperson I would say the danger is trying to do too much

at once And um if and what I mean by too much is like oh I gotta

I gotta do everything on social media and I gotta have like the the perfect website and I

have to be you know I would just one of the things that product managers

are good at at prioritizing right And you say like if I could only do one thing the

most important thing I can do to deliver value to my customer And so I would say

the same thing like what does what do my fans need from me like this week today this

month Not 10 things right Not 10 things one thing right And and I'm not gonna try and uh yeah

do do every sort of partnership but I'm not gonna put out five different versions of you know this track

and I I'm not gonna you know I'm gonna figure out because I'm gonna talk

to them and figure out what they really care about and then I'm gonna focus on that So again

that goes back to listening and the conversation with the so that's the governor You would you

know if somebody's idea you know for and they've got oh I'm gonna do these eight things this month

You would say pick one and talk to your customers Is that right Well I'd say

you're always uh you would always be talking to your customers and they're gonna tell you 12 things

and you're gonna have 40 ideas yourself But as the if you put your product manager hat

on and based on you know it's it's not a perfect it's an art and a

science here That's a tough right Well that that's that's the thing you can you can do 40

things Super mediocre And spread yourself thin Um it doesn't it doesn't work I know it feels counterintuitive

because you're like the more things I do the more opportunities It's just doesn't work that way and it's the

same way I in business the same way I'm building a company if you can just really focus

We do I do this one thing really well So so you're you're serving your fans better by

saying no to 95% of the the list That that's right Then any time a

person says they want to get into product management I say how comfortable are you with

saying no because you you really will you'll say no to your CEO you'll say no to the head of

sales you'll say no to your customers you yourself say no to yourself You know

you're constantly saying no And it kind of sucks for people like it it's a hard job You're the

bad guy the bad guy Yeah No one likes you because you're always saying no But but

really what you're saying you're saying I'm saying no to all these things So I can't say yes to the

most important thing It's it's not always one thing but it's certainly not 10 things It may be

two or three But if you can get into a mindset of I'm gonna do the one thing really

Well that's that's where the value is And I love that That's such a discipline too because that's we have

uh a framework we used where we call it the super high value task And it's like OK if

this every day if there's one thing we can do that moves the needle What is that one thing

that makes the day that where we win the day And it's it's uh it's just AAA an exercise a

mental like a muscle of going OK Here's yeah there's 10 things we we need to get

to But for Tuesday this one thing is where we win the day How do you how do

you pick the winner Like you talking to customers all the time saying no to partners We

work work with What's your how do you get to A Yes Yeah Again I I

think I think it is an art and a science but I will I'll give kind of

three practical tips Here You start with having a clear vision right Mission that goes along with that But you

know you you mentioned North Star earlier when we were talking and in and this is where

I start with Any company I'm at is like where do we wanna be Three years

from now Ok Now let's go backwards Where do we want And and when I say where do

we want to be like write it down Very descriptive Like you've got multiple pages you've got key milestones

you're saying like this is how I know I'm gonna get to this place So if your vision

is like you know heck no I'm not going back to playing in my parents' basement Like I'm

I've got a different vision for myself Like that's so that that's step one It's just getting really

clear directionally where you wanna be going to go back to a one year and then you can kind

of break that down Um I think then then you can get the feedback that you're getting from your fans

when you have those fif 50 customer calls or interactions right When you're getting to know you have that really

deep relationship and they're telling you stuff you want to try and align like OK

hey I hear what they're saying They're saying this is what they want and this is

what they need from me And here's my vision How do I marry the two Like how can

I actually deliver the value they want And how is that gonna get me closer to where

my vision is for my my career and for where I wanna be Um And

then I would I would say this goes back to the art and science The third piece is you you

just have to kind of experiment and pick some things And so you're you're hearing

you know you got this clear vision you know where you want to be three years from

now you have all this really like these that came out from your conversations with your

fans and then you're like hey all right I'm gonna go try this and I'm gonna you

know we have a term we called Iterate Right You're constantly like you know tweaking and you

know it's it's short feedback loops You're like you try something fails try something again

that kind of fail Try all of that kind of work So there's that process but you're prioritizing

that thing again That's on the top Yeah the three year Yeah it's gonna get

you 33 year and that you already know that your customers or your fans in this

case are telling you like oh that's that's what we care about I love that Brian This has been

great man I could totally do another uh another hour of this man but thank you so

much for uh jumping on and being part of this Um one question for you as we put a

bow on this I know you spent some years at BM I are publishing companies

as BM I affiliate You don't want to get in a shouting match between as a

BM I and C A But as you probably heard BM I is talking about potentially being acquired What

um what are your thoughts on Good bad horrible fantastic If they were to be

acquired Wow wait wait to wait to drop a loaded question at the very end Here

Here's how I answer that John like and I know you've been out of BMIs world

for a number of years But uh II I as a fellow artist like and songwriter right I love

this community It is incredibly important to our world like everything you know whoever is listening

if if that's you like what you're doing matters And I think I think the different companies and the parts

of the ecosystem will continue to shift right And you know I don't know what's gonna happen

with with with BM I and and there's pros and cons to all that what I

would say is don't get caught up as as an artist don't get caught up in the macroeconomics of this

Like focus on what you control This is going back to the learning lessons of of bandbox There's

certain things man we we were trying to raise our series a funding in the like worst

economic meltdown the fall of 2008 Like that's out of my control Like what happens with BM I or

E or C or any of the other You don't have a Yeah it doesn't matter like

focus on what you can control focus on what really matters that getting clear on again that three year

vision for yourself and man the the world is noisy right now So I would

just that's that's my encouragement Like stay grounded get clear on your vision You you're you're

doing amazing stuff like get clear on that and then just get really super focused And I I think that

over time you'll you'll see the value Yeah I love that man Brian thanks you Thank you so much for

uh joining us for this monthly call in It's been a great conversation and I know so many of

the artists in our community are uh you know thinking about their artistry as a career in a

business and operationalize it So this conversation's been great talking about product management and how it relates and

how we bring it to bear on artists So Brian thank you so much for for joining us Absolutely John

thank you for having me Of course we'll do it again soon All right take care