and welcome the pixelated Harmony the voices behind video game music I'm your host Ryan

Smith and I'm excited to jump into this interview with our next guest composer producer and sound designer with over

and of this Command and Conquer please help me welcome in Frank help a key Frank thank you

so much for joining us welcome and how you doing my friend I'm doing well

thanks preciate it absolutely absolutely and of course we were just talking beforehand you know Frank is or has

been basically a Las Vegas native been out here since you were 3 you know I've

been out here for 20 years we both kind of made our pathway from Illinois over here so you

know it's nice and there's a ton of people I feel like Las Vegas somehow is like a like a

little like mini Illinois there's so many people from Illinois that are out here yeah in

a Las Vegas is sort of a Melting Pot for a lot of places but

you're right there's a lot of people like from the Midwest and back east at of kind

of migrated over here I've met a number of people not only from you know Illinois Chicago area

but also like a lot of people from Ohio to oddly enough that here yes no

I don't know how many Ohio State fans that I am friends with out here it's annoying

but anyway let's get into it again thank you so much for coming on and just taking the time

to sit down with us I want to go back obviously just kind of from where

your come up and came from being out here in Las Vegas I know that you were drumming professionally at

you know the spark kind of has to start somewhere and for me I mean my

parents were both musicians professionally so you know they're from Chicago they moved you know

to Las Vegas you know when I was super young like you said and so I've only

ever known being around that you know they always had bands going on and you know they were performing

around casinos in Vegas guess and so that was just sort of a normal part of life for me

like you know and they used to tell me like as a little kid that you

know I assumed that everybody's parents just did stuff like that you know I didn't realize until later you

know that was more of a special scenario but but yeah I got the bug early to want to

try to you know learn an instrument from that and you know it took me a minute to

kind of figure out that drums was going to be my starting point because I tried our base you know

and then I was like well this is kind of really hard you know as an eight year old

at the time I'm just like trying to figure this out and these instruments are

overwhelming and they're really big you know because I'm still a kid and so I'm just like

all right well drums is probably easier right just have to beat the crap out of those

how hard that could that be so my parents were like alright well listen if you're serious you

know will you know for Christmas we'll get you a drum kit but you have to take lessons

for a year you know that's the deal like after that if you want to give up great but

you have to do it for a year here that's that's that's the bargain all right okay so

that's how hard to do that be fine so I did that and I and

I ended up really enjoying it I end up really taking to it and that became you

know something I became passionate about at a young age so with that a few years

later you know now I'm 11 and my parents were in a bind one time it was a

New Year's Eve gig that they had and they had a issue their drummer you know dropped out or

had a double booking or something like that and they're like we're going to get it's a major holiday everybody's

booked and they're like well when we give Frank a try how so and I

you know I was already familiar with the material of course I listen to them practice all the

time so I jumped in and you know rehearsed with them got got The Showdown and

yeah I played played five hours for my first New Year's Eve gig and got paid for

it so that was hey that was my first pro gig damn amazing yeah yeah so that's

how I got started in music I started as a drummer first and foremost and you know

I just quickly like started climbing the stairs of the next goal that I wanted to

hit so as a drummer first of all I was like okay I'm really like I

learned a lot of music and now I want to find out what's the most

challenging thing to pursue you know like What drummers should I be listening to and I got really into rock

music and heavy metal music at that time I wanted to you know learn from drummers like

Neil PR2 and Stewart Copeland and Charlie benante you know from Anthrax and stuff like that and and so you

know just very diverse sounding drummers you know ultimately different styles John Bonham of course you know all of

the Great's and so I started absorbing all of that and then a little bit

later I got into funk music like because that was a whole other genre that you

know Groove was such a big part of and I was like wow I was like this is like

also amazing and you know how do I dive into that and had discovered Sly and the Family Stone

which is you know my favorite band and and so when I saw their Woodstock performance on television

on that classic concert that really just threw a light bulb above my head and I said

oh my God that's what I want to do you know that that that's when I knew

and then from that point on I was always pursuing something that would make me feel like that

you know like that kind of music that kind of energy gee that that hybridization of those those Styles and

music that made that so special and that's what I was kind of chasing ever

since but I've always been a diverse musician in that I've you know like multiple Styles and genres

of music but you know Funk just happens to be my favorite you know and

and rock and metal being you know right behind that and of course I developed

a love for electronic music after that but I really started getting into original bands and as

a teenager like I said trying to pursue that feeling and that led me to to

wanting to be a composer because every time I tried to come up with an

idea for a song and a practice they would look at me like I have

no idea what you're saying and I was like okay I don't speak their language that's the problem here

there's a barrier that I need to overcome so how do I do that well maybe I should learn

another instrument right so then I started learning keyboard so I could figure out what key What notes

you know what chords that I started learning guitar a little bit you know that was you

know older I could grasp it a little bit better and you know started figuring out ways to come

up with riffs and chords and so then then I started being able to communicate

these ideas and then I was able to contribute and I felt good about that

well then of course the more I practiced the better I got I started using a friend of mines

by myself and I was just like wow that's awesome I could just do this you know and so then

that got the gears ticking about being a composer or at least being a songwriter

and it wasn't until towards the end of high school that you know I also had a passion for video

games I was a gamer you know playing computer games and console I grew up with the

old Atari you know and then onto the Nintendo days and stuff and so then I heard about Westwood

Studios my cousin was the vice president Lewis castle and I was looking for a summer job between

you know my final year of high school and so he's like hey will you know

we might have a tester position open you know it's like kind of the you

know minimum wage thing but you know if you want to just have a gig you know so so

they interviewed me and had me come in and I just you know was a tester

there for the summer but that was the beginning of opening my eyes to video game

development then I could actually meet people that were making the games and kind of see the behind-the-scenes

of how there putting these things together the art and the design and the programming and

of course the audio and it was very intriguing to me to have conversations with all these guys and just

kind of learn a bit about the process and you know and just be wowed by their

work and know how these things are put together so I wasn't the best tester admittedly because I was so

distracted so I wasn't invited back the test but you know it was just you

know it was it was nice to have that experience because I got to meet you know a lot of

people and get an idea of what video game development is and so I then after I

was getting ready to graduate high school I approached the audio director his name was Paul and I said how

can a man I'm if I can be of any assistance to you you know if you need an intern

or an assistant or something help in the audio department episode we got but I'd be

interested in that because you know I'm composing music myself and you know been a professional

musician Russian and tinkered with sound on the computers and stuff so I have some

idea about it and so I'm he's like well he's like that's an interesting idea so

let's you know I'd be try out some of our programs see how you take to it

if you can you know get the gist of it and you know we'll take it from there

so kind of was on a trial period basis for a few months and after passing that that trial

period he offered me a full-time job and the rest was history and it is that

is amazing and just that you know it's interesting that you say to you about I keep

seeing how just Evolution of Music and and how it's kind of grown with technology and as artists how art

is have you know been so adaptable enough to take something that's physical and then adapted to no longer now

an analog medium but a digital medium and able to adapt that and then your other loves for you

know video games like you said I got I've got to ask did you ever play the oh my

goodness why am I spacing it space Quest the space Quest series oh yeah yeah absolutely a success

although Sierra games back then you know I played the king's quest police Quest space

Quest yeah all of that stuff I love it that is the Larry he has Leisure Suit Larry

you can't go wrong with it and of course unless you were sleeping on a rock you probably heard

of Command and Conquer as well and I'm a huge RTS fan obviously this is a

classic RTS one of the OG R TS is what you know just being involved with in that process

I know people have got to be dying to know what did that process look like what were

your Inspirations because you do have a lot of there's a lot of driving and just just something

that was I almost want to say Transcendent in video games you didn't have music like that

being composed for video games yeah you know that's that's an interesting point you bring up bring up

and and it wasn't something that I gave much thought to really at the time I knew

that we were doing something fun and special I mean I think the whole team kind of had

a sense of that actually because when we started you know getting that game together and getting this you know

first you know playable levels and missions and stuff it started to feel really fun and special

so that was something that we kind of had a sense about but we had no idea

it would become as popular as it did and certainly when I started working on the music for it

yes it was taking advantage of technology that was the next level for video games which I was excited

about up until that point we had relied on midi scores with midi playback through sound cards and and

chips that were included with game consoles and a lot of it was FM synthesis based sometimes an occasional sample

playback Channel but how we had the capability of streaming wav files back you know

even though we had to down sample them into like 22k mono it was still at least a representation

of the recording of the song the way that we would intend it to sound and so that's

what was really new and exciting for me at that time we had done it with

one other game right before that which was Legend of chi Randy a 3 and and so it was

like right on the heels of that that Command and Conquer was also taking advantage of that

technology and so yeah as far as Inspirations go that started with a meeting that kickoff

meeting we had with myself the president of Westwood and who is you know heading up

CNC and then also our audio director Paul and we all sat in in Paul's office and we all

basically brought ideas of music to the table of what do we think would fit this

kind of I am given the subject matter and so we started kicking around just and and

listening to CDs you know like one after another you know like okay so what about this idea and it

would be like you know a soundtrack what about this idea be like a rock metal band this idea be

more electronic this idea it'd be more you know something more hip-hop or edgy you know because we're looking for

stuff that would have more of a contemporary flavor to it you know something that that

echoed the times of what music was able to communicate but how does that fit into this modern military

near-future setting that's borderline science fiction and so yeah that was the interesting thing to

discuss because we really didn't know what would work well unless we kind of put our heads together and I

had the opportunity to kind of try some things and I was encouraged to do

that there would like you know what don't don't think about limitations it's just try a bunch

of stuff based on what we talked about and we'll see what works you know and that was kind of

the idea going in this is also indirectly why command & Conquer soundtrack is so diverse because I tried all

of these different things they put it all into the game to see what people would respond to and

everybody kind of liked the variety oddly enough so instead of zoning in on a particular

genre are aware particular style they just left it all in yeah yeah no it well

and I think that's really interesting too because I feel like a lot of times people try

to you know put viewers listeners whatever into a box and as I cannot people are eclectic people

like all kinds of different things and if that's something that and obviously it was something

that resonated with people and people you know that's something the music is as iconic

as the game itself and that says something and I feel like we say that

a lot in games nowadays and that's always been something especially since the introduction of just you know just more

Purdue produced music for video games and to the point now where music is being used

as a mechanic mechanic with in video games the evolution has been you know just my mind blowing

how it's just kind of come along as technology and everything has moved along as well

and I think you made a really interesting point in something that I want to say around a time

of this game this is a what mid-90s we had we had what Desert Storm and things like

that that were also politically going on I'm just wondering did any of that stuff

have any kind of impact on a game like this or is that something that

just kind of you know was like Hey That's that's going on there we've got this

going on we're not touching it it probably did I mean I can't speak to the Grand Vision of

the design as as much because you know that's wasn't really my territory but I'm just

from being there and kind of getting a sense of you know what things were being derived from

I think you know of course a lot of that had to play into a bit of the influence but

what I do know is that there were some magazines and things that were around

at that time I think I think one of them was called like Popular Mechanics or yeah suddenly yeah absolutely

yeah I remember and it was it was like you know a projection of you know futuristic things that may

yet come or that were being developed or try it out or you know and who know if

they were coming to fruition but they were taking Concepts like that and saying let's pretend all of this is

true Let's Pretend all this did come proportion and did happen and what would the effects of

that be and the abuse of power with that stuff and and all of that

you know so and then combine that with the fact that we've got this new mineral that's foreign that you

know everybody's fighting over and etc etc because you know that's that's basically what what people

fight over in the end of the day is power of some sort so full of something

yeah and you did have things to like Starcraft Starcraft 2 and things of that nature

as well so I feel like you know and again not to not to speak on on any

of that stuff but you know that stuff I feel like had less of an impact

on on games and just how people saw that that stuff and whatnot so I totally understand that but

what is your I guess what is your reactions and feelings been just you know how much the music

of this game you know means to people and and just how much it just kind of like to

me it just kind of changed the game of music and games well thanks yeah you know

it's something like I said I didn't give much thought to at the time and even when the

game came out and started to gain Traction in popularity you know we were getting

fan mail about the music and stuff and people are asking you know for soundtracks and whatnot and and

I thought well that's kind of fun I'm sure it's just you know a few diehards out

there you know like that's a nice nice thing to hear I didn't think it was anywhere near as is

widely received as it was like it just didn't dawn on me because I'm used to the traditional Outlets

of how you receive music you know you see you find bands you find movie soundtracks

you know those are the big deal to everybody how could video game music possibly mean that much

to somebody on an equal level of that you know and particularly anything that I had done at that time

because it was so new I was just like you know I don't understand how this

would be more popular besides you know just a handful of people but of course I was

greatly mistaken and it wasn't until the sequel red alert came out that it really blew the doors

off in terms of the response and the the overwhelming response I should say not only to

the game part of the soundtrack to that really you know then I started getting like nominated

for awards and stuff and I was just like oh my gosh this is so much bigger than

I think it is I can't believe this you know like so it was really just an eye opening sort

of moment and and I was very flattered by that of course you know the fact that

anything I could have done for you know for a fun game that I was just having

fun creating could resonate that much with people and still does to this day you know

we can only ever be grateful that that many people around the world decided to

choose that as their jam you know yeah it is that kind of like point where you're like you

know I'm gonna I'm gonna stick with in this genre or has it been more of

a like hey I'm you know if something comes up I'm gonna do this but

I'm just kind of you know floating around doing whatever and obviously that's something that

you do but I mean you've worked on a ton of just iconic games and I

feel like that's not by accident well it's I was fortunate enough like I said to to integrate into you

know Westwood studios in particular at that time the fact that I got the opportunity to come on

board as a composer you know full-time composer I got to you know be a part of all of those

great games that we were able to do and it was such a great culture I

felt at that company everybody had great camaraderie you know had a very like family work vibe to it like

you know that that's something to get tossed gets tossed around a lot people like

their job but I mean it really did feel like that it really feel like

felt like we were all you know part of something special and we all acknowledge that and we

enjoyed hanging out together even outside of the office and and playing games and it was just

like I said a great culture so when you're immersed in that and you know it just helps

feed the creative machine of your contributions so you know getting to work on games like you know

like the first RTS even which was doomed to you know that came before Command and Conquer and really

was you know the Catalyst for us you know doing that doing CNC because it was Westwood's

opportunity to take that concept and do an original Ip with it that was kind

of the whole point but then you know getting to work on Blade Runner and and The Lion King

for the Super Nintendo platformer game and then we did you know CNC Renegade which

was a first person shooter version then we did you know the other Doom games you know the

June 2000 a battle for Dune you know Monopoly I mean it was like the first

internet version of Monopoly where you can play online with people so you know and

then of course the lands of lore series I worked on either Beholder to even back in

the day like this so much so much history there I've literally worked on at least one game

on every console that is come out just about yeah so amazing starting with the NES

first game I worked on was on the original NES it was a dragon strike it was a

top-down like Dragon shooter that was kind of fun to do that you know but yeah and

then moving beyond that you know I got to you know become audio director of petroglyph after you know Westwood

was Consolidated into Electronic Arts and so then first game that we worked on it Petroglyph

was Star Wars Empire at War and I couldn't have been more happy about that because is is my

favorite IP of all time you know it's my favorite movies and I knew all of the

sounds all of the voices all of the music like the back of my hand like

you couldn't have asked for a better person to jump in you know as head

of audio for that so once I got into that I was just a kid in a candy store

for for so many years because we worked on that and the follow-up forces of Corruption

so for years of Star Wars I was I was in heaven yeah you can I

mean that is like literally a dream come true working on something that you're very familiar

with well and let me ask to did you do you feel like that was that was

beneficial for you or do you feel like there were some areas that you wish that you were a

little less familiar with like what was that experience like not really so the experience was like

basically okay we're doing Star Wars I know exactly what goes where so none of that was

an issue at all what was more interesting in terms of a challenge was that I

had to come up with new Salat of new sounds right for for vehicles that

don't necessarily exist in Cannon like they were from expanded universe or we had to

come up with some you know other vehicles creatively ourselves to add to the Arsenal

of of things you have available so I'm like okay well what are those things supposed to sound

like you know do they have the same guns on them or do we invent a new

kind of gun or you know we had I remember we came up with a TIE fighter tank you

know which didn't exist before it's like what does a TIE fighter tank sound like it's on Treads it

doesn't Fly and Tie fighters are known for that Roar so okay well maybe we can use the same I'm

kind of blaster sounds but will add at Red to it and then I'll figure out

a way to make the engine kind of sound like a little bit of a roar but just subtle

you know or something you know just trying to come up with different ideas to add to

the mix of the audio palette that fans are familiar with and really the whole point was to blend in

not to stand out like the as of Star Wars fan myself I'm like okay if

this is taking place during a time period that I'm familiar with which it does then I

want the the Beats of that to feel like it's from the films so I very much concentrated

on that but anything outside of that was a little more fair game for me to have

some fun with so like Space Battles for example are a little bit more neutral you know

there's unless you're fighting over a very specific planet and you want to enact the Battle of Endor or something

that's one thing but I was able to write new themes in the style of John Williams that

were more neutral for Space Battles or for one for land battles you know different worlds we

haven't seen yet and situations like that so so it was fun to contribute alongside of the existing

materials that we had that we could use from the films we had permission to use from lucasfilm so

it was just a matter of blending it together and making it seamless so you know

it wasn't I could have easily like you know tried to let my ego go a

little bit so yeah I'm gonna make sure well no it's me on this but that right Hall I

was like no it's better if people don't know it's me it's better if they just feel like this

is a true Star Wars experience and anything new should just blend in you know I

absolutely love that because that is something especially as an artist working on a material that you're you're

really familiar with there is that that almost like you don't have to have an

ego about this you don't have to be afraid of this or anything like that this is something

that you can dip into something that you've been a part of and like make it feel I love how

you said that just to subtleness of it and it feeling like hey this belongs this doesn't

seem